Nyasha Williams Talks About ‘Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist’ and ‘Keep Dreaming Black Child’

A podcast interview with Nyasha Williams on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.

Nyasha Williams is an inspiring author, creator, and activist on a mission to decolonize literature, minds, and spiritual practices. Her books, including Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist and Keep Dreaming Black Child, open up meaningful conversations with people of all ages and emphasize the significance of taking action and being an ally.

In this episode of The Growing Readers Podcast, Nyasha shares how her passion for eco-activism and love for water is what first led her to create children’s books that make a difference. The writing process itself is a personal one, with ancestral connection playing a crucial role. Nyasha works tirelessly to push her books into higher realms, with the hopes her books will inspire humility, hard conversations, and diversity acknowledgment to create a more equitable world. Don’t miss this conversation!

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Transcription:

Bianca Schulze

Hi, Nyasha. Welcome to the Growing Readers podcast.

Nyasha Williams

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Bianca Schulze

Oh, my gosh. It’s an absolute pleasure.

So, just so listeners know that we made a connection through the SCBWI, the Rocky Mountain chapter, and you were so kind because I’m working on a project, and it’s a project not quite the same, but a similar format, and you were so kind to offer me some guidance. And when I got to know you, I knew I needed to have you on the show. I want to jump right into the meat and potatoes, but I was like, we need to have a fun question first. So, I thought maybe you could share two truths and one false thing about yourself, and I’ll see if I can guess it.

Nyasha Williams

Let’s see. I did synchronize swimming. I have ten tattoos, and I have, um, this is hard. I’m trying to think of I put you on the spot, and I’ve had about three different careers at this point.

Bianca Schulze

Okay. I am going to guess that while you might have a tattoo, you don’t have ten.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I have seven.

Bianca Schulze

Seven is my lucky number. I don’t know. I just looked at you and felt like you were a synchronized swimmer. And I don’t know why.

Well, let’s start talking about what you’re here for today. So, I will jump right in by asking you an important question.

Nyasha Williams

Okay.

Bianca Schulze

On the home page of your website, it says that you are working to change the narrative and that you’re working to decolonize literature. So, I want to know when this became your mission, and have you always considered yourself a change-maker?

Nyasha Williams

Good question. So, I will say I really started noticing issues when I was in the classroom. So, I was teaching kindergarten in Baltimore. I got into teaching through an alternative teaching program, and that kind of led me to realize that my kids weren’t being represented in the curriculum that I was expected to teach. And so, through all of that, I kind of came around to being like, something’s got to change. I’ve got to do something different.

So, I started talking to some other teachers, and we started talking, and ideas were flowing, but no one was really stepping into the commitment of building something yet. And so, behind the scenes in my own space, I started just playing around like I didn’t even know what a manuscript kind of layout looks like. But I just started putting some stuff on paper, writing, and then also just kind of getting some things on my computer. And that’s where the two manuscripts of my first children’s book that I self-published—so, writing What’s the Commotion in the Ocean?

And then, for me, I started writing those books, and I didn’t really know where they were going to go, but I started during that time, and so they just kind of sat for a while, and then I transitioned to Colorado. And teaching is a lot—like anyone who’s been in the classroom knows, it takes a lot out of you trying to build something that’s in your heart or trying to do things outside of teaching. Honestly, most people don’t have that space to give all the time because it just takes so much out of you giving into your classroom. And so eventually, there was a point where I just heard the call, all right, step into this first children’s book. And I didn’t have the funds, so my logic was, let me Kickstarter this. Let me crowdfund this first book. And that’s where things kind of kicked off.

I have always considered myself a black mermaid. Like I said, synchronized swimming. I did diving. I was on swim team. I love water. Water is the space I want. My mom jokes all the time when I was a kid, and we would go to those little swim classes with your mom and you. My mom jokes how I would just get out of the pool and then run to the front of the line every time and try and be in front of everyone because I just wanted to get back in the water. So, I love water. And so, starting with a book about the ocean felt great to put out first. I care about our water spaces. I care about our oceans very much identify as an eco-activist. And so that, for me, was a great place to kick off. And what better person to voice that message to kids than a mermaid?

And we need a black mermaid, right? So here we are. And so those illustrations went viral because I think people hadn’t really seen something like that. And that’s how I got connected with my literary agents, and it kind of went from there. But I am just trying to write for, first of all, my inner child, my child, what I needed when I was a kid that wasn’t there. The representation wasn’t there. I’m writing for future kids to walk into self-love long before I did. And then I write towards our future. I write towards a better world, like, what do we need in our world? What needs to exist? And so that is where my writing is centered.

Bianca Schulze

Love it. Well, you kind of touched on this, but when you sit down to write a book for children, what is your driving force? As in, what do you feel in your soul when you sit down to write for children?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I think any writing, I really try to build an ancestral connection with it. I feel like I’ve always felt like it’s not just me writing. Like, yes, I have this passion, and I hear this coursing through my body, but I think that any ancestor who hears what I’m trying to do and is in alignment with that, who maybe didn’t get a chance. Like, if they were out on the plantation and did not get that space to be able to write, they’re able to come through me now, and we’re able to write for this future in this generation right now. So, I feel like when I write, yes, I’m speaking what’s in my heart, but I feel like it goes beyond me. It’s like this extended ancestral voice in terms of my writing.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, I kind of had a full-body reaction to you saying that my arms went all tingly. Okay, well, what are some of the hurdles or roadblocks you’ve had to face during your journey to becoming a published author?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I think challenges are funds. I think financials are always hard. I think I am one of those people that I’m one of those people. I think visuals make such a huge impact in any way. So, a lot of times, I try to have my proposals that go to publishers—have sample illustrations of what I’m trying to do, and that costs funds because I want to be able to pay illustrators correctly for the work, and that’s not really a traditional route to go. Most people say you’re not allowed to pick the illustrator; you’re not allowed to come with those. I have not followed any of those rules, and I’ve had great success. So, I feel like people need to listen to what they need to be doing in the way they’re moving in the publishing world. So that’s one example—getting those sample illustrations.

And I know that I’m not alone in this. You know, editing is expensive, getting projects edited before they’re ready to be given to your literary agents before they go to the publisher. I have been blessed that I’ve had some really rough manuscripts that my literary agents have still pushed forward, and editors have still picked them up, but that’s not always the case. And again, the bigger the project. So, children’s books are one thing, but I think once you start going into higher realms, which is kind of some realms I’m trying to push into now, you absolutely have to have things edited and cleaned up and, like, multiple rounds of going through before you’re ready to take it to that next step.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah. All right, well, what are your thoughts on whether having a big ego helps or hurts writers?

Nyasha Williams

I think confidence matters. I think that when you’re moving as a creative, I think that especially in today’s world and with social media, it’s not just about you writing the book and getting it—even if you get it picked up, it’s like you have to talk about the book. You are going to sell the product the best, right? Like, you’re going to give the message of why it needs to exist in the world to people better than anyone else. And so, having confidence is important.

So, we’re in Leo season. I’m going to bring it up. I am a Leo rising. And so, it’s like Leo is a little bit cocky. I think they do have an ego, but I also think that they walk in their power really confidently. I was like, I think there’s this level of ego where you’re so egotistical, you’re not willing to learn, and you think you know it at all. And I think that’s where things get really problematic. But I think ego in the confidence of yourself and what you can bring into the world and what you are bringing forth into the world is a different kind of ego that I think that is something that you’re going to need if you’re going to be able to showcase your product to the best of your ability.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, and it’s kind of like the energy that you put into the world is typically the energy that comes back to you as well. And so, if you sort of teeter-totter, then I feel like people pick up on that energy, and then maybe they’re not sure about the work that you’re putting forward. So, I love that response.

Nyasha Williams

I will add to that, too. I do think that ego also plays in terms of I think you need to check your ego with other people. I think your ego needs to be within yourself. I think that if you’re egotistical in terms of comparing yourself to people, I think that can be problematic too. I think that we all have something to give. I think that everyone brings something different to the table. I think that the reason why, again, even when you started this, you talked about how we had collaborated in terms of me sharing information and helping you as you’re trying to build. And I feel like that’s the energy I’m always in. Like there’s more than enough for everybody.

We don’t need to be in a scarcity mindset. We’re all building, we’re all creating, we’re all growing. And I think that honoring that, again, there’s even this dynamic of self-publishing versus getting traditionally published. There’s this whole vibe of, like, these people are better and whatever. And it’s like; sometimes I wish we could shed all the label needing and titles and stuff. And I get it. It’s nice to be recognized for all your hard work, and everyone wants that. But I also think that honoring that, putting a book out into the world, is a huge passion project and takes a lot of work and a lot of energy. And it should be honored in any form that it comes in, even if it’s not perfect. I feel like it all takes work.

And I think that, again, I’ve seen people have an ego in those ways about like, oh, you haven’t been published by the Big Five, then you’re not on my level, or you’re not someone that I need to associate with. And I think that’s something that needs to be checked, and people need to slow the role. Because, again, even if you look at it in a historical context, not everyone’s been given those opportunities. We know how many manuscripts actually make it through those doors and actually get picked up. Like, let’s honor that. Everyone’s on their journey, and everyone’s going to put their words out into the world the way that they feel like they are able to.

Bianca Schulze

Yes. That is so perfectly said. So, if I’ve done my homework correctly, you’re now the author of eight picture books, with two more on the way. And I want to focus today on your two latest books. Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist and Keep Dreaming, Black Child, which are both beautiful books. But let’s begin with Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist. And if you don’t mind, I want to share two of my immediate thoughts that I had while I was reading it.

So, anybody who’s been listening to my podcast for a while knows that I had Dr. Ibram X Kendi on to talk about How to Be an Antiracist. And so, when I was reading Ally Baby Can Be Anti Racist, I thought to myself, this is the perfect, condensed, like, everything that Dr. Ibrahim had said, and then somehow you perfectly said it in I don’t know what the word count is. I didn’t go through it, but let’s just say it’s like 600 words. And I was like, everybody needs to read this book, not just toddlers—preschoolers, elementary age students that we assume picture books are for. I was like, this is a book that everybody needs to read. So that was my first thought, just that, how did you possibly condense all of this wonderful information into a picture book?

And then that second part of it was, how awesome will it be when somebody picks this book to read with their child, and they realize as an adult that they can take away and learn from this book, too? So those were my initial thoughts, but why don’t you break it down for us? Why don’t you break it down for us and share what it’s all about?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, of course. So, in the Ally Baby Can series, I was asked by Harper Collins to create these books. They wanted something similar to Ibram X. Kendi’s Antiracist Baby, and they wanted to create a bigger series. And so, we knew we’re going to have an antiracist. They wanted a feminist. Then we decided I love environments. I was like, what about an eco-activist one? And then the final was, we’re working on a LGBTQA or queer ally. And so, they gave me very free range on it. They’re like, this is what we’re looking for. We want kids’ books for kids—we want them to be educational. And I was like, yes, let’s do this. And it felt like a good project because I care about all of those things immensely, and I think they’re super important.

So, I started creating them. And you know as well as I do that. It’s really hard to get rhyming books in. Like, people will fight you. They will always say, go lyrical. Why don’t you do prose or something? They’ll say something else. Say, go a different route. Don’t go Rhyming. So, because this was already a solidified contract, I was like, I want Rhyming. I’m going to get my Rhyming books in here.

Bianca Schulze

Yes, girl.

Nyasha Williams

And so, I got my rhyming books, and all four books rhyme. And I think that made it somewhat a little bit more challenging but important. I didn’t want to shy away from hard words. I never have in my classroom. When I taught kindergarten, we always used the correct terminology because kids can handle it, and it’s good for them to use the correct words when they’re talking about specific things. And so, I dove right into that.

Antiracist was the first book we completed, and it was a very easy one for me. It was probably the smoothest and easiest. Everything got checked by sensitivity readers, and everyone went over them as a sensitivity reader and made sure everything was on point, and everything made sense. So, yeah, it really came together. I wanted to make sure that there were diverse bodies and diverse characters within the book. So, we made sure that we have different kids and different looks in the book in that way. Jade Orlando is the illustrator, and I think she did an amazing job on the series.

I think—and I feel like this for all my books, a lot of them; I think they work on multiple levels. And I feel like this for all books. Like you said, first of all, I don’t think picture books should just be for kids. I think they’re for everybody. I think they beautifully put these powerful messages in the simplest form. And I think everybody can receive picture books in that way. And then these books, I feel like we made sure even if the child cannot access the words, they can access the pictures. And the pictures speak volumes. And we made sure that everything we were trying to voice in the words that I wrote is illustrated through the pictures. So even if the child is just accessing the pictures, they will understand the concepts through that.

And we do that in the classroom all the time. Like, what’s happening in the picture? What can you pull from the picture? What can you notice? What do you wonder? And we do that kind of work. And I think that that just comes from the pictures alone. And then, of course, we gave a dictionary because we do use all formal terminology, like pink, tax, all the different things, all these different words that people may not know. And so, making sure that people do have formal definitions if they are unsure.

But to me, it was really important because this book, to me, is kind of like the most basic blueprint for stepping into Allyship, right? Like, that’s what these feel like to me, these books. And so, I hope that families bring them home. They’re reading them to their kids. But, yes, as you said, it’s not just for the kids. It’s very much for family and adults and people in the space to learn from in ways that they can move as allies and step into allyship.

Bianca Schulze

Well, can you share a highlight from this book? Maybe it can be a quote or a favorite illustration.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I think one of the best illustrations, and I think the illustrator as well, feels this way, is the picture with the kids eating together, like the table. Right. Just because I got to put in some unique food items that are really in my heart. And so, if you have not had any of those items, definitely either make them at home or find a place that you can get them from. But I tried to put some unique dishes that are just absolutely delicious from the different places in the world that I’ve experienced because food is magic, and it’s a beautiful way to connect people. So that’s one of them.

And then the name. I was like, my name. I simplified my name when I was a very young child because people were not pronouncing it correctly, particularly white people around in the area I was were not pronouncing my name correctly. So, I decided to say Nasha instead of Nyasha, which is the correct pronunciation of my name. And then, when I moved to France to become an au pair after college, my host family was like Nyasha, and it flowed. And I was like, oh, people can do this. Oh, okay. Now, I’m stepping back into my name. So anyone who knows me after Paris knows me as Nyasha because I reclaimed my name.

And so, the picture where the kid is like, I’m just going to call you this name, and the other kid’s like, well, that’s not my name. My name is this name. And he’s like, okay, sorry, and then calls him the correct name. I was like, we have to walk in power in our names. And names are important. They are part of a person’s identity. And it’s crazy because they’ll say that our names are more complex, being BIPOC individuals. And I’m like, yeah, but think about these complex names of these music composers that people have learned and know how to pronounce beautifully. I was like; you can learn how to pronounce our names if you can pronounce those names because those look nothing like how they’re pronounced; you can learn to pronounce our names as well.

Bianca Schulze

Absolutely. I feel that one as well. When I was prepping for our chat today, I was just kind of googling around, and I was looking at a few of the videos where people have read your books online, and I always giggle at those because everybody’s doing their best to pronounce everything. And your name was pronounced, I think, like four different ways throughout those videos. And then my name is Bianca Schultz, and most people say here in the US. Bianca, but I go by Bianca, and then because my last name is Schultz, but there’s no T in it, everybody says Schul-zee or Schoolz. Anyway, I always have a little giggle when somebody does one of those live readings of my books online.

Nyasha Williams

Oh, my goodness. And I try, and especially if it goes to the publisher, I’m trying to please make sure the pronunciation is correct because I have it on my email signature, written out phonetically. There’s actually this beautiful website. I think it’s called Teaching.net or something like that. But I have their link in my link tree on my bio, and they have a place where you can auditorily pronounce your name so people can do that. And so, I have that link right up there, ready to go for people, because I get it. It’s not easy. A lot of us are auditory listeners or auditory learners, and we need that pronunciation.

But I’m like, I am not inaccessible. Contact me and I will help you. I will text you, and voice note you my name if you want to do that before an interview because that’s 100% matters to me, and I will do that for you.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, I love it. And then I have to say that the first spread you said about the food I had picked that as my favorite spread because it touched a personal note for me. And if you don’t mind, I’m just going to read the text from that page.

Ally Baby eats different foods homemade by their neighbors. Ally Baby embraces all cultures. A first step toward changed behaviors.

And the reason why it really spoke to me is because one of my neighbors—I just love her so much. Her name is Minji, and she grew up in Korea, and I grew up in Australia. And we walk to pick the kids up from school. And we love talking about the differences and the similarities, but one of my favorite moments was when she just showed up at my doorstep, and she came with kimchi dumplings. And then, another time, and I had to write it down because I want to make sure I pronounce it right. The kimbap is the Korean seaweed rice roll. Oh, my gosh, they were so delicious. And I would never have probably tried them on a menu. And here she was, showing up, sharing some of her food with me, and it was just so amazing. I felt really special that she wanted to do that for me.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah. No, Korean food is my husband and my favorite. We had it served at our wedding. We love Korean food immensely. It’s like one of our favorites.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah. So, what impact do you hope that Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist has on readers?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I mean, all my books, I think, really call for action. I feel like that’s just a note through all my books is, like, be active in it. I think, What’s the Commotion in the Ocean? is asking you to protect our water spaces, walk as a water protector, and take care of our environment. That, for me, is asking you to walk in self-love. It’s asking you to do daily affirmations and, step into that power and make sure that you are honoring yourself and walking in your worth.

I Am Somebody is talking about making sure that you realize you are somebody. You have a voice, and you can create change. And knowing that and stepping into that role and the ally baby series is very evidently asking you to step into this form of allyship. Each one has a specific form of allyship that they’re centered around. But stepping into moving in these ways, I mean, again, like I said, these books are just a start. There’s so much more to allyship and being a true coconspirator, but stepping into being more than just a kind person, like stepping into actually doing things that are creating change and building a more equitable and just world.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, absolutely. I was going to move right on to the next book, but I feel like I can’t step past it. I can’t recall the exact text, but in Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist, there’s that moment where I think people, and I obviously can’t speak on behalf of all white people, but I think people sometimes get afraid of making mistakes, of saying the wrong thing, of just trying and failing and not knowing all the right acronyms and the right terms and everything like that.

But the truth is that that’s part of being antiracist is that you have to push forward, and you have to make a difference, and you have to change, and you have to be willing to accept when you have made a mistake. I think that was a great part that I took away from Dr. Ibram X. Kendi’s book and from this. And I loved that you had included that to not be afraid to make mistakes.

Nyasha Williams

We are all going to make mistakes. I was like, that’s actively what everything is going to be about. We’re all going to walk into making mistakes. It’s your reaction after realizing the mistake, or someone calls you out on it. And it’s that accountability within that. So, it’s basically your reaction and then the accountability aspect because I’ve made mistakes. I was like, we all need to work to be antiracist.

Just because you’re BIPOC, that doesn’t make you antiracist. It’s like the reality is that we all need to decolonize. We all need to indigenize because we are in systems that actively promote us. Being racist, being misogynistic. Our whole society, through the patriarchy, through all these different systems, is not in alignment with the liberation and everyone being okay. And so, we actively have all grown up in these—we’ve been pretty much programmed in them. Like, they talk about the indoctrination. We’ve all been indoctrinated through these systems, like what people choose not to teach or choose to teach. Yes, that is indoctrination.

And when I think of historically what I was taught growing up in the States, history-wise, it’s like, I didn’t know about the Tulsa Race Massacre. I didn’t know about all these different historical aspects of my ancestor’s history that I should know in this. You know, these are the kinds of things that, again, you’re trying to shape us, looking at America in a certain way or viewing black people in a certain way or viewing this or that in a certain way. And we want the full picture. We want the full story. That’s why it’s so important. New narratives and all voices are heard right now in stories and making space for that.

But, yes, it’s very much, again, we’re all going to make mistakes. It’s just honoring that. That is part of the process. Humbling yourself because that ego can come up. And I think sometimes it’s hard. I think an example in my family would be Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is a day of mourning for a lot of people in this country, like the first people of this country. It’s a day of mourning. And so that’s not how I was raised, though, and that’s not how many of us were raised. And it’s only really coming deeply in a more conscious light in our society into question now. And it’s something we need to address and think about.

And I get it because it’s a time of being with family. Like, my dad correlates it in. He just has fond memories of growing up with Thanksgiving. So, this readjustment was hard for him, but we’ve had to have sit-down chats with the family and say, how can we change what this day looks like? So, we’re honoring that this is a day of mourning, and we are honoring the communities that this day has caused harm for. And we’re also making space to still make that time in family.

And maybe instead of celebrating Thanksgiving, we’re doing I try and move more into, like, seasonal living, moving seasonally, kind of shedding the Gregorian calendar. And so, why don’t we just honor the seasons? Why are we not just celebrating fall in general rather than Thanksgiving itself? Let’s just do fall on a different day. And we are honoring the seasons, honoring those changes. And on Thanksgiving itself, maybe we’re actively doing ally or coconspirator activities, making sure that we are connecting with the indigenous communities of America, making sure that we’re buying from those businesses, making sure that we are doing things, making sure we’re fighting for land back. We’re doing things that are actively supporting those communities.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah.

Nyasha Williams

So, it’s work. It’s not easy. It’s hard conversations. You’re going to have ugly cries like decolonization is not for the faint-hearted, but it’s the only way that our world is going to truly heal and be a more equitable world and just honestly be more truly accommodating of the diversity of the world. Like, we’ve really had a lot of communities who have had to almost shrink their diversity through colonization and through white supremacy, and that should never have been.

And so, we need to open our minds and acknowledge that, again, decentralizing Christianity doesn’t mean we’re kicking Christianity off the boat. We’re just saying not everyone’s Christian. And we don’t need to center-ize our whole calendar around Christian holidays because there’s other people in this world besides Christians, and we need to honor that. Other people are going to have different walks in terms of what they worship and religion, et cetera.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing.

Bianca Schulze

There’s so much more to say. It’s hard to move on. Let’s see. I would love for you to share with listeners what Keep Dreaming Black Child is all about.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, so Keep Dreaming Black Child is really my love letter to the world in general, but really to black children. And then, on a deeper level, to some close friends and family of mine who expressed to me that they felt like they had given up dreams because people had told them that they could not do them. They had told them that this was too big or that’s not a financially viable job.

I’m sure a lot of people have heard that there were just some jobs you just couldn’t walk into because it was not financially viable. And they gave up on certain dreams, especially creative dreams. It seems like that’s a big one where people will say that’s just not possible. You aren’t going to make it. It’s too tough to get in there. And so, this book is centered around children not losing those dreams, like those original dreams you have in childhood that just brought you so much joy, and that’s what you wanted to be when you grew up, and it was just you dressed up like that every day, those kinds of dreams. Just don’t lose that. And so, the goal is to walk in power in those dreams, don’t lose them, and stay with them.

That’s really what that book centered around. It was two manuscripts originally because I had one manuscript that was basically affirmations I wrote for the world—in terms of what people can voice and say, an affirmation of building the world that we need. And then I also wrote just a manuscript centered around really dreaming and holding on to your dreams. And my editor was like, can we blend these? And that’s how Keep Dreaming, Black Child came to be in the world.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, well, it’s such a beautiful ode. I love that, specifically, you wrote it with black children in mind, but it’s really a book that everybody can read. It’s so beautiful. Will you share a highlight from the book special to you?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, first of all, I want to, like, obviously, the illustrator is magic. Her name is Sawyer Cloud. I’m obsessed with her. There’s two illustrators that you have your dream illustrators to work with. She was one of them for me. So, I’m so blessed. I have three books with her, like, two still on their way, and then this one here. And so, I just am so honored. She has this whimsical style that gives me the Studio Ghibli vibes, just those feels, those good vibes and whimsical vibes. So, I love her work. So, the illustrations are just absolutely stunning.

And then, in terms of my favorite part of the book, my husband and I love the picture with the little girl with her locks who’s got the megaphone. The locks are so long. They are bigger than her. They take up the whole spread. So, two pages, and it’s so precious, and it’s just such a sweet image. And then I also love the spread where there’s all these books that are the pathway. And so, this child is, like, hopping on these books to go through this magical door.

And I tried to make sure—originally, the illustrator had just put in just kind of like, classic, I would say classic. I want to say white, but yeah, classic white tales and stories. They put, like, Peter Pan and stuff like that, which is not bad. But I wanted stories that the black community has seen themselves in that were magical as we were growing up. And so, I had her change out those books for those. So, I tried to pay homage to some books that were doing that magic long before we’ve fully started to really step into it now.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, well, I don’t know if I was just hungry when I read these two books of yours, but my favorite spread from this book is the one with the giant food field table, again, surrounded by all of the different people in so many different shades of beautiful brown. And the words are, dreams are always worth our time. Our future needs you to keep dreaming. I dream of a world in which those who have more than they need will build a longer table, not a higher wall. And I just thought that was magical. So, thank you for writing it.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, no, I love communal tables. I think they’re so beautiful. That’s one of my favorite things to do in summer is to go to farm-to-table dinners out in Colorado. I hope to go to ones that are not in Colorado and expand my experience in that way. But I love communal tables, just meeting new people in that way. And they’re normally outside, and you’re like in the evening under dusk into the stars. And it’s just so beautiful to eat right from the farm and connect with the farmer. It’s so gorgeous. And that’s kind of the vibe I was going for with that gorgeous table because, I don’t know, it’s just a beautiful way to connect in community, obviously over food. And then I think outside under these beautiful tables, I just think that it just brings me a lot of joy to be in those spaces.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, well, what are your hopes for Keep Dreaming, Black Child. What do you hope readers take away?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, I hope that they take away stepping into whatever career-wise would spark and light up your world. A question I ask a lot of people is if you didn’t have to worry about funds at all, money was not an issue; what would you truly want to be doing in the world? Like, what would you want to be building, creating, doing job-wise? And then I’m like, okay, well, that’s probably what you need to be doing. You just need to figure out a way to make it financially viable to live in the world.

And that’s challenging in our world because, again, a lot of times, we’re still not paying living wages on things, and it’s a mess out here. But I think that we are in this beautiful space to start building anew. I think that if there was ever a time when people could step into things that haven’t been done before or things that have been told that this is impossible, I think we’ve seen so much of the impossible happening in the last few years. So, I say step into it.

Bianca Schulze

Yes, let’s step into it. So, before we go, I want to give you the opportunity to share anything else that maybe you want to leave the listeners with. It could be an upcoming project; it could just be your intentions for today. So, is there anything else you want to leave everybody with?

Nyasha Williams

Yeah, okay, there’s a couple of things. So, I will talk about upcoming projects, and then I actually feel like I’m hearing the call to pull from my Black Tarot deck, a card for today.

Bianca Schulze

I’m so excited for this.

Nyasha Williams

So, I first of all want to acknowledge that Keep Dreaming Black Child comes out in December, and then I have in September coming up—that’s when Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist comes out, as well as my Oracle deck that I wrote with my sister. So, with my sister, I co-created the Oracle deck, which is Elemental Alchemist, and it is centered around the elements. And I wrote Water and Air. And she wrote Fire and Earth. And together, we wrote Spirit. So that is something that’s coming out into the world. And both of my decks have journal accompaniments.

And let me tell you, the journal for the Elemental Alchemist is phenomenal. If you’re a bullet journey girly, we made, like, a spiritual bullet journal. It’s amazing. I will say my tarot one is perfect for starters. Like, if you’re one of those people who’s just getting started in journals because it’s once a once-a-week reading year, so they ask you to pull once a week, and you track that, and I think that’s perfect for beginners. That’s awesome. It’s also got stickers of the cards from the decks, so I’m like, that’s a good one. That would be a great start for you. And then the bullet journal one is like the next level. It’s like, ready. It’s cute. You color in things. We really did it. It’s amazing.

The illustrator on both decks is Kimishka Naidoo, my friend from high school. We went to high school together in South Africa at Pretoria High School for Girls, and we still stayed connected. And she did an amazing job on both decks.

So next year, in the summer, my mother-in-law and I wrote a book called Saturday Magic, and that book comes out in the summer, and so we’re so excited about that. I love my mother-in-love. We’re super close. She’s amazing. She’s like, I’m the daughter that she never had, and she feels like I give her the experience of what it would have been like to have a daughter. But we are super connected, and spiritually, we’re very aligned, so that’s just awesome. But we wrote a book, and it’s kind of like we call it a hoodoo story because it’s about dreams in the black community

I mean, a lot of spiritual communities, but in the black community specifically, there’s a lot of dreaming that happens in terms of understanding your dreams and what that means. And so, this little girl has a dream, and she asks her parents what it means, and her mom’s like, you got to figure it out. So, she spends the whole day trying to figure out what her dream means and going about her day. And it’s just a very sweet homage to Hoodoo, just like the spiritual practices that we are doing and then just like honoring the power of dreams.

Bianca Schulze

I want to know now. You’re going to make me wait, aren’t you? I want to know what the dream means.

Nyasha Williams

I will have to get you a copy of the book so that you can read it, and we can come back on and talk about it.

Bianca Schulze

That sounds great.

Nyasha Williams

And then I wrote a book with my friend again, another rhyming one. So, I’m going to have another rhyming one. This one is awesome. It’s a Kwanza book. This is crazy because when my publisher picked this up, she was like, my editor picked this up. She was like, oh, my goodness. There are, like, no Kwanza books out here. She was like, the books are from the 90s. She was like, this is really crazy that there’s, like, nothing. And she’s like, this is such a necessary book.

So, we wrote a book up for Kwanzaa. It’s rhyming. It’s lyrical, it’s really beautiful. And Sawyer is illustrating it. So, it’s going to be magical. But we really wanted something that just beautifully embodies Kwanzaa and gets kids excited about Kwanzaa. Because I feel like kids are hyped about Christmas, but it’s like, we want kids to be excited about Kwanzaa. Kwanzaa is really beautiful. And we really wanted to showcase the beauty of Kwanzaa. So that was really the intention of that book. And we hope to expand and make other Kwanza items and books and things. But this is like kind of our kickoff with that. So that’s really cool.

Bianca Schulze

And that’s next year. That one.

Nyasha Williams

That will be 2025.

Bianca Schulze

Okay, we’ll wait. We’ll wait. We don’t want to wait, but we’ll wait.

Nyasha Williams

Yeah. Just started illustrations. And so, it’s like, still very beginning.

Bianca Schulze

It’s such a slow process with children’s book. I feel like a lot of people don’t realize how long it takes from the moment you finish the manuscript to when it actually comes out.

Nyasha Williams

Yes. And that’s, again, a difference in whether you do traditional pub or self-pub. Because self-pub, you could do a lot faster. Yes, a lot longer with traditional publication. And then I also am writing well; I’m working with Andrew McNeels. So, the same people who are printing the Oracle deck are going to be publishing it. And it’s going to be more of an adult book. But I think I feel like all people get joy out of these books. It’s a seek-and-find book. So, I made a first seek-and-find book—I had never seen a BIPOC, like anyone with people of color. So, I was like, this needs to exist.

So, I found this beautiful illustrator online. She’s from Austria. And so, she did three samples for me. And that’s what we pitched it with. And it got picked up. And it’s gorgeous. It’s coming together beautifully. And so we’re working on that right now. And so, it’s going to be an adult book. But I feel like everyone’s going to get joy out of this book. It’s like, who doesn’t like seeking fine books? And so, yeah, kids and adults are going to be able to go through and find the different things on the list.

And yeah, I just know that those books were really fun for me growing up. And I was just like, I feel like I’ve never seen diversity in them. I’m like, it literally doesn’t exist. I feel like I literally might be the first person creating this.

Bianca Schulze

I’m sitting here trying to think, and we have a lot of different ones, and I can’t think of any diverse ones.

Nyasha Williams

So, it’s like, necessary. And it’s like just the beginning. And I hope other people—I don’t feel like it’s a copycat because it’s like, clearly, there’s not enough. It doesn’t exist. So, step into it. Although those illustrations are no joke because they’re going to be a level up in terms of price because it’s a lot of illustrating for the person to illustrate, and then what else?

So, I’m also working on something with my mother-in-love. We’re working on ancestral money, which is kind of a different realm. It’s kind of more into our spiritual, like tarot Oracle deck vibes. But I’ve been working on this for a minute. We’re going to launch pretty soon. But it’s like money. We give offerings to your ancestors. That’s just like kind of the vibe. We leave offerings on the altar. Food and different things. People do these things. A lot of people practice ancestral veneration without realizing it.

So, if you have a place in your home where you have pictures of people who have passed away, if you have items you still wear, heirlooms, that’s all ancestral veneration. We’re all doing it, whether you’re conscious about it or not. And food is one of those things. When you keep recipe books, or you make recipes from people, like people you love, and you do this or even buying alcohol that this person liked and just pouring a glass for them, that’s all ancestral veneration.

And so, one of the things you can do in ancestral veneration and offering is giving money so that the ancestors have this energetic energy to clear Karmic debts or to be able to just have energy to be able to do to help you and aid whatever’s need is in our world right now, whoever needs it in the family, whatever. And so again, this is a space where I wasn’t seeing enough diversity in the money. There’s very few people who have money with black ancestors on it. So, for me, that was something to step into.

So, I’m working on that right now, finalizing it, really. And I want to kick off and launch that and have money that we are consciously venerating people who ancestrally were doing a lot for our community and have done a lot for our community. I also want healing in that there’s some people who are on this money who didn’t get the recognition they deserved in this lifetime.

An example would be Henrietta Lax. So, she’s in your body right now. I can tell you. Uh, she was sick, so she went to John Hopkins, and she ended up dying. And they took her stem cells without asking her. And her stem cells are able to replicate. They just don’t stop; they just replicate. So, in terms of that, they’re used for everything. In terms of all vaccines are created from them. They are used in all the medical industry. There’s no level of putting a number on how much she has aided this world. We all have her in us because we’ve all had medical help that she has aided through her cells without her consent or her knowledge. And so, it is a wild story.

And thankfully, slowly, people are starting to acknowledge her family. It’s crazy because her family still struggles with medical bills and has medical issues with paying their medical bills, and that’s something that they should never have to worry about for life, considering what she’s done for this world with her cells. And so, they’ve never been compensated.

I was like, there is a book about her, but I really honestly could not read it. I got super bothered by I’m sorry. Dedications are important to me now, being an author. And so, when I read the dedication, she did not put in her dedication to Henrietta Lacks, and you’re writing about her life, that really bothered me because it’s such an ancestral piece of know. And so, it really bothered me that she didn’t acknowledge Henrietta Lax and all that she’s done and just honor her as an ancestor in that dedication she dedicated to some family member of hers. But this is weird. Okay, so I’m not going to get Stuck on it.

It’s a really important story. And so, she’s on the money, for example, in healing for her, in acknowledging all she’s done. And also, I put the energy of not having the same harm that happened to her in her lifetime or having things taken of our consent medically come forth. So, there’s a lot of levels to my ancestral money, but it’s healing and then honoring and venerating these ancestors. And then also you can do an asking of what you need and your intent around them based off the energy that that ancestor brought forth into the world.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, it’s so fascinating. Oh, my gosh. I feel like your brain just must be constantly creating new things. And I don’t know how you streamline and decide which project to work on next.

Nyasha Williams

And this is why I love co-authoring, and that’s why co-authoring is big for me. And I step into that deeply because co-authoring is, first of all, just a beautiful space. It’s lovely to co-create with people. I feel like you just get this beautiful synergy, and I think it’s going to help us build narratives that are stronger because if you have somebody else coming in with their opinions, their thoughts, their version of how they see the world, through their lens. I just think it’s going to make a stronger narrative, and so I’m very much about that.

So that helps me when I step into projects is like, sometimes I’ll be like, oh, this project definitely needs to come forth. I definitely ask my ancestors what needs to come next. But also, sometimes I see somebody, I’m like, oh, this person feels like they’re really good to help me build this. And so that helps a lot. But yeah, the other huge thing that I’m working on is I am working to build my own publishing company. I’ve heard the call. I feel like I’m not getting everything I want from the publishing world. As much as I’m grateful for what I’ve received and the success that I’ve had so far, I’m hearing the call to step into building something that feels perfectly in alignment with me in terms of publishing and putting work out there. So that is what I’m working on now.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, because, you know, if it’s perfectly in alignment with what you need, that it’s also going to be in alignment with what others need. Well, Nyasha, you had that tarot deck next to you, and I feel like it’s calling my name, and I want to know what the card of the day is.

Nyasha Williams

All right, let me do a quick cleanse.

All right. So, it’s the Four of Wands, and I love to read my sections because I feel like I’m the author, so I wrote it. But I will say this is definitely about stability, and a good foundation is what I’m hearing today. So, let me pull up the Four of Wands. All right.

Four of Wands: Harmony and celebration are the traits card description. A couple showcases their synchronicity through balance and strength while exercising and working together. The Four Wands is about honoring your growth to this point. Stand back and look at how far you’ve come. The card is calling to celebrate all the little wins you’ve enjoyed throughout your lifelong voyage. Take pride in your growth, development, and alignment. The couple lives their life confidently, knowing they are breaking generational curses, building roots, and generational wealth, all while grounding in living authentically. They show appreciation to their ancestors by creating a solid work-life balance and making time to rest and honor those who were unable to in the past. Pause and take time to admire where you are in the moment. There are so many reasons to celebrate. Work can begin again tomorrow.

In Yang: commitment moving into a place to set roots. A strong ancestral connection to home.

In Yin: problems conflicts within the immediate family division in the family sickness, money difficulties aligning host a neighborhood gathering.

Bianca Schulze

I feel like that card was kismet. I mean, especially like, I’ll host a gathering with food, and the illustrations I picked twice today were that, too. Oh, man, I love that. I’m going to have to get your tarot deck.

Nyasha Williams

Thank you. I appreciate the support.

Bianca Schulze

Well, Nyasha, thank you for being authentically you and demonstrating what it looks like to live your calling. I’m grateful for you, your time, and your books. And just thanks in general for being on the show today. I appreciate you.

Nyasha Williams

Thank you. I appreciate you having me and bringing me into the space. And I love talking to you today. Bye.

About the Books

Publisher’s Book Summary: Ally Baby Can books introduce allyship to tiny change-makers! Perfect for shared reading with an adult.

Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist models how young kids can stand up for members of the BIPOC community in the fight against systemic racism.

Extensive back matter includes important guidelines for allyship, a kid-friendly reading list, and other helpful resources for baby and you.

It is never too early to learn about ways to change our world.

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Publisher’s Book Summary: An inspirational picture book for BIPOC children about the power of big dreams—for their future selves, their communities, and the larger world.

Nyasha Williams’s latest picture book is a moving and powerful invitation to BIPOC children to fully explore their dreams for the future. Dreams provide purpose and meaning—they are ideas born of love. They take time to sprout and can sometimes be clouded by the doubts of others, BUT with patience and discipline, we can rely on our visions for a better world by following our dreams. Interspersed with explanations of what dreams are and why they are important, are affirmations that offer precise ideas for ways our dreams can effect change. Encouraging readers to reach for the stars and embrace others for what they are or wish to be, Keep Dreaming, Black Child reminds children of the power of hope.

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Show Notes

Resources:

For more information, visit https://www.nyashawilliams.online/⁠.

Black Tarot on ⁠Amazon⁠ and ⁠Bookshop.org⁠.

Elemental Alchemist Oracle Deck and Guidebook on ⁠⁠Amazon⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠Bookshop.org⁠⁠.

What’s the Commotion in the Ocean? on ⁠Amazon⁠.

I Am Somebody on ⁠Amazon⁠ and ⁠Bookshop.org⁠.

Discussion Topics:

Nyasha talks about:

• Her mission to decolonize literature and how she got into writing children’s books driven by her love for water and eco-activism.
• The writing process through ancestral connection.
• Challenges of funding and editing in the publishing world, especially regarding getting sample illustrations and pushing into higher realms.
• Creating the “Ally Baby Can” series and incorporating rhyming in the books.
• How the illustrations in the books are designed to convey messages even if the child cannot access the words.
• The inclusion of a glossary for formal terminology.
• How she hopes the books will resonate with readers.
• Taking action and being an ally and needing humility, hard conversations, and acknowledging diversity to create a more equitable world.

Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode: Nyasha Williams Talks About ‘Ally Baby Can: Be Antiracist’ and ‘Keep Dreaming Black Child’. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Follow Now on Spotify.